Thanks again for your high quality posts last week! I really enjoyed reading each one. Some of the posts were incredibly insightful. Remember that each post is worth 1% of your final grade. Please proofread closely and feel free to write more than just the minimum :)
This week's thought question comes from Chris Brown, and it is excellent! Thanks, Chris!
Here is the question:
Both of the stories we read in class on Thursday talked about America’s shortcomings. Sojourner opens a window into a past filled with racism, sexism, and disconnection. Margaret Atwood, in “A Letter to America,” informs us of our current mistakes in environmental, economical, and foreign relation issues.
Thomas Jefferson wrote in the Declaration of Independence: “…all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” What do you see today that would go against this statement, if anything? What issues do you think Sojourner would stand behind today if she was alive? Would she and Atwood agree on issues currently facing this country?
Constitution Day is next week. Consider how our nation has progressed over the years and where we have room for improvement. Is there ever an “expiration date” on a strong argument? Can a writer’s argument be as relevant today as it was 100 years ago? Why or why not? How so?
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When discussing "certain unalienable rights," one could argue that abortion denies the unborn of life and all that accompanies it. I realize that this is a controversial subject, but I thought I would throw it out; feel free to respond.
Moving on to the subject of Sojourner, I have concluded that she would support movements for freedom of religion for all people, regardless of their beliefs. We have already commented on her Christian beliefs in class, so I think that this supposition is justified. Based on her Christian principles, she might also take a stand against homosexual marriages. Again, I know this is controversial, but maybe it will generate some good discussions (not arguments)!
I believe that Sojourner and Atwood would agree on the need for reform in America. Sojourner, however, would not have such an attachment to "the good old days"- America was not a pretty place in her time.
Looking at our nation today, I think that we have come a long way. People, especially minorities, have (mostly) gained their rights to freedom and equality. On a negative note, we have lost freedom as well. The government now has more control than it did in the past. Do you think that this elevated control is necessary for our well-being?
Finally, I think that the lifespan of an argument depends entirely upon the facts it is based on. If the facts themselves are unchanging, then the argument will stand the test of time, regardless of superficial social changes. If the facts are limited to a specific era, then the entire argument will lose its validity over time.
You had lots of good questions, Chris!
First of all, when I read these questions from Chris, I wonder how he came up with good questions that I'd never thought about.
Regarding to Sojourney's and Atwood's story, I see them in different ways. As what Adrian pointed out, Sojourney didn't live in the "liberty and pretty" America. Men looked down on women, as women are weak and pointless. (Which I sometimes see that some men still treat women that way). Also, because she's a womanist, I believe she would hate to see women who got abused or mistreated.
In contrast, Atwood compares the good old America with the current America. In her letter to America, she talks about America as a whole and wishes the country for improvements to build a strong, loving and peaceful country.
After reading both of the stories, I have concluded that both women are trying to make the identity of America itself better and also their personal thoughts be heard.
Again, because I came from a different country for education and hopefully to live one day, I think that America is the "dream" country to many people, especially foreigners. It means that it holds so many promises to the people for better future.
I agree with Adrian, America needs to show facts to represent us how it would bring good future in later life.
When comparing Sojourner's and Atwood's stories I realized how much these women have in common. All they are really after is freedom and peace. Sojourner is fighting for peace in her era, such as freedom and rights for blacks and women. Atwood on the other hand is fighting for freedom in our era, such as the corruption of our government, and to stop the war in Iraq. I do feel that if Sojourner were alive today she would be fighting for the same issues that Atwood is.
I think our country has progressed a great deal over the years. For instance we have fought and won for the freedom, and the equal rights of our citizens. Many countries have been fighting for this for hundreds of years. Of coarse I feel we definitely have areas in our country that need improvement. Such as the war, taxes, medical insurance, and all the main issues we are still fighting for, but we should be proud of ourselves for all we have accomplished.
I hope a writer's argument isn't as relevant today as it was 100 years ago, because hopefully we have learned from the past, and moved on instead of dealing with 100 year old problems.
I read both stories and i'm impressed, because they both talk about identity, freedom. Sojourner believes in God and is focusing in justice and equal treatment for women and men , being a woman, she worked like men. She was pretty much a leader whom support justice,equal rights and freedom for all people who have their own beliefs on religion. Women, at that same time were oppressed, humilated and affraid to speak, they were minority and have no rights, no justice and no education it all and being slaves for ever. I compared with the other story "A letter to America" is other good stories that realy impacted me that how we all are living in this big nation and still exsist a lot of discrimination for all foreigners from diferent countries coming to this continent called Noth America. where, we are living under constants attacks, so where the power of this country at? write's might still have a lot argument until this days, because society are changing, enviroment and education also changed, is more freedom of speech. I really love "the golden days" of America when every body respected each other, kids obey to the parents and any other adult. The American people loved the foreigners at that time, no matter where they came from. I don't think the government has more control than before, because is a lot of homeless in the nation and the gov. is not doing nothing to help them out, because all the money is going directly to Irak, and that is totally not fair, when he should look and help at our nation first. 100 years ago was better deal because the nation followed all rules and cooperated with the good government at that time.
I do feel someone’s argument that was made 100 years ago can still be relevant today. As in the speech, Sojourner Truth gave in 1851 to a group of women in Akron Ohio. I feel her argument of wanting to be treated fairly is still valid this day in age. There are women in our society who work just as hard as any man and sometimes do not get the respect they deserve. Therefore, I feel her argument can still be valid this day in age. We have women in our world who are raising children on their own and acting as the father as well but are still treated as though they were not capable. Women, especially single moms out there do you feel you always get the respect you deserve for being the women you are?
Building on the last blog, it makes me think of the “no child left behind act” that was instigated in the 80’s. This was to make sure that females weren’t getting the short end of the learning stick. In previous years it was felt males would make it further and were smarter and what not. Although that was obviously not the case; except for the fact that males had been given more attention before that. But after the “no child left behind act” it was found out instead of disbursing attention between each student fairly, it had been shifted from the males to the females for a time. As well as the fact that congress states that “from state to state, however, huge differences remain in what students are expected to know and learn.”
Now I will admit that females still don’t get paid quite as well as men and that isn’t fare. But what about a labor job? If a male and female hold the same labor job should the be paid the same? Not to be rude but for the most part males tend to be more physically capable. Obviously not the case 100% of the time but if I am able to do a labor job better should I not be paid more? Or do we pay the same for the amount of work I can do versus the amount of work woman can do? Why would I work to my full potential in that case?
“Women’s rights” is such a controversial issue all you have to say is “We don’t get treated fairly” and you feel entitled to something, but what about “male rights”. I truly believe men don’t get treated fairly any more.
In everyone’s view the “White Man” ruined the world and is the blame for everything. Where does that leave me?
With Sojourner I believe she would support the movements for freedom of religiona of all people today. She was such a strong verbal women that she would be great to have today for some issues, such as abortions/and gay marriages.
With Atwood I believe that she stated how she was feeling about our Nation and I think that she did get her point across to many people.
I believe that Sonjourner and Atwood woud come together on the need for reforming our Nation. Atwood states that she liked the good old days but for Sonjourner times back then were really tough.
Our Nation today has changed from what it was a long time ago, good and bad. Good that we have gained some freedom, but bad because we have lost some freedom to the government more now than before. Do we need this much control over us or should we be able to get some back?
Thanks Chris for the very good questions.
All of the works mentioned in the original post have very valid premises. However, I think you could take each story and really scrub it and find “devil’s advocate” arguments all over the place. I really want to focus on the essay, “A Letter to America,” by Margret Atwood. How very bold of her! Not that I don’t agree with some of her arguments, she definitely should be commended for being so observant to another nation other than her own. But, seriously! How simple of a description of our better days, did she explain? To base our “good o’ days” on actors and writers and forms of entertainment, but depict our constitution, our national debt, and our economy? They just don’t match up for her to be credible enough for me to get ruffled up by her rhetoric.
What I agree on, is that some documents, speeches, and/or essays do hold truth to time. If the writer is careful enough, they can encompass a generality that can be applied to situations centuries from now, used in the proper text. We can find today, many Christians still reading from the Bible, a book written thousands of years ago. Some tales are farfetched, but the principles of the stories are often recited in congregations still today. Not all documents or essays can hold the test of time. I believe that only writings on the simplest form of human traits will really last. Things such as freedom, prejudices, and wrong doing, will forever be discussed issues, making the writings of yester-year valid still today.
Also... Kingsbury, I think you need to brush up on what the "No Child Left Behind" Act was actually put in place for. But you have a very interesting argument...
I believe that the unalienable right, like life liberty and the pursuit of happiness are not as true today as they might have been back then. I believe that Sojourner would stand behind the fact that racism, sexism and disconnection are slowly going away even though they will never go away they whole way. I believe that they would not agree on a lot of things because Sojourner would like the way that the U.S. is now today while Atwood disaggress with what we are doing with our country. I believe that the only expiration date for a good arguement is when something is finally resolved but that will never happen in this country so I believe there will never be an "expiration date." I believe that a writers arguement does not have the same relevancy today like 100 years ago. All of our issues today are way different like 100 years ago they didnt worry about nuclear weapons and things of that matter.
Although the Declaration of Independence states that "all men are created equal," we all know that this is not entirely true. Many laws have been passed that ban segregation and discrimination, yet these two issues are still present in our society. If any of you have ever seen the movie "Crash", you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. Living in a small town like Boone where there's not an extreme amount of cultural diversity, it's hard to imagine the racial, sexual, and religious discrimination that's going on in other parts of the United States.
Sojourner lived during a time in which not only black people, but women as well were discriminated against. Living in such a hard time for black women, she already had ideas about reforming America into what it is, or rather, what it is said to be today. Therefore, I believe that Sojourner would stand behind any movement or law supporting any form of equality between people.
As other bloggers have said, I too believe that Sojourner and Atwood would agree that there needs to be changes made in America. Even though they lived during different places during different time periods, they both pointed out a lot of problems with the America that they knew.
If an argument from one hundred years ago still has relevant information and pertains to situations occurring today, than it absolutely doesn't have an "expiration date." There's a lot we can learn from our history. However, if the situation in the argument is no longer relevant to what's going on in today's world, than we really can't benefit from it's content.
I believe that the Declaration of Independence andthe Constitution are forever and should be respected and followed.
Both stories are trying to change the way people look at America. They want everyone to see what is happening. Sojourner wants everyone to see that women are just a strong as men and should have the same rights. Atwood is showing everyone what is happening to America. Both of these women would fight about the same issues. Atwood may argue more about the way it would affect America as a whole were Sojourner may argue more on what individual affects it would have.
If an argument is strong it should last a long time. Sojourner’s argument will last for a long time or at least until all women a seen an equals in every society. As long as the argument has foundation and a defined goal then is has a good chance of standing the test of time.
After reading both essays and also attending Thomas Jefferson's speech the major point that comes to my attention is as stated in the Declaration of Indepence "all men are created equal". Well this statement is true all men are "created" equal they just aren't "treated" equal. As shown in Sojourney's essay women, and white weren't treated equal. Black women were treated even worse than white women but neither one of them were treated as fairly as men. When this country was being set-up its goal was to treat all men the way they were created but we still haven't reached that goal.
Not only have we not reached the goal of complete equality but now our country is being looked down upon as described in Atwood's essay. We are no longer that happy go lucky country with Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck, instead we are country that is in a war that people are questioning our reasons for being there.
Yes, I must agree we have improved from the time period of Sojouner's but we are starting to go down hill again, as shown in Atwood's essay. But we just need to have faith and maybe someday we will be that country where everyone is treated the way they were created: equal.
The Declaration of Independence may state the "all men are created equal", but still today some women have to fight for the same type of job as some men. Sojourner had a point to make with her speech that she and other women wanted to be treated equal back in 1851 and we are still struggling to accomplish that presently. Margaret Atwood didn't point out that she wanted people to be equal she pointed out that America is no longer what it use to be, which is a major problem here besides people not being treated fairly. So pretty much, what Sojourner's argument for equality is still a present thing and probably will always be because there is always going to one person who feels that they way they are getting treated isn't the same as everyone else.
i think that a argumaent can be just as relevant today as it was 100 years ago, because we have other issues to discuss today. WE may not be fighting for women's rights or to end slavery, but we still have some battles to win. I think sojourner truth would have tried to fight fro rights for everyone, whether they are gay, straight, black or white. She would be proud of the fights that writers are continuing in todays america.
First of all I like to commit on another blog here. Kingsbury I have a son that would so totally agree with you on the "white Men" being discriminated against thing. However, I do think that you need reinvestigate the meanings of the "No Child Left Behind". On personal note though I do think that the "No Child Left Behind" is leaving children behind more then ever by just letting the slip through and out of school.
As for the two essays I enjoyed both of them. Unfortunately the "good-ole-days" that Atwood's describing were not good old days for all, and not just for African-American but also the Jewish as in the Movie "Gentlemen's Agreement" I do think that Sojourner, an incredibly courageous women for the times that she lived would be dismayed in our times as well and would have something to say about the upheavals going on now.
I do think the two essays are similar in that they have hope in the things that could and have made us great.
Yes, I do think things written or spoke long ago still hold relevance for us today. When I used to read self help books, one in particular, I read this line and thought it was awesome in the contexts, at the same time I thought I've seen this somewhere else before. I later found out that it was from the Bible this author was pissibly totally unaware of it, because there was no reference to that fact.
I think the right to freedom will always be a desire for all humanity.
I dont think the unalienabe rights mean the same to people today as they did 100 years ago because people today are much different than back then. Our country has changed so much over the years in positive and negative ways that Sojourner and Atwood would like and dislike many things that are going on here today. I agree with Adrain that we have gained and lost freedom and that the government has more control, considering they tax anything and everything they can.
I don't believe that there is an expiration date on a strong argument. In the case of Sojourner, her ideas are still as relevant today as they were in 1854. Although much progress has been made in society against inequality, racism and sexism still exist. I don't believe that will change because you will always have people taking out their hatred and frustration on those who they consider inferior. Even though it will always exist we must continue to do our best to build on the strong beliefs that these brave ones stood up for. It's always good to study these historic writings because we should be learning from our mistakes lest history repeat itself.
Thanks adrian elliott for pointing out the abortion issue. In response to that, I believe that abortion does deny the rights of that life being aborted. It is murder and I believe that goes against the original intent of the Constition. I also believe Sojourner would oppose such an act in a heartbeat. I also think a writer's words can be relevant today as it was 100 years ago, because we are human beings who fail. A lot of problems from the past unfortunately happen today. Problems usually don't disappear. It would be nice if we could see the mistakes of the past and learn from them, but that doesn't usually always happen.
After reading both the stories, I see some similarities between the two. In a way, both women are fighting for justice and freedom. There is some difference between the two as well. Sojourner was fighting for the freedom of African American people and women’s rights specifically in the 1850s. Atwood is speaking out to America as a whole and more towards our government so to speak.
I think Sojourner and Atwood would join forces to fight for many causes today. I also believe that a writer’s argument 100 years ago can and sometimes is relevant in many of today’s cases. There maybe, for example, more laws different from a hundred years ago but the same issues come up today. Look at the recent cases of discrimination that have just come to surface.
When I had read both stories, Atwoods letter had puzzled me because of how she is questioning how things are being handled through the government and so on. Though it is funny because she is not from here, though she can judge what is going on in today's society. In Sojourner's story, she is fighting for womem's rights and also for rights of different races.
Between the two I do enjoy Sojourner's story because of how she had expressed herself and made the point that got out to everyone. On the other hand, Atwood's letter had made a lot of sence because of what is going on in our country today especially with the war in Iraq where I feel we have been there for six years now, and progress is not exactly our strong point right now.
First to kingsbury, whether or not I agree with everything you said, I applaud you for you post. It is refreshing to find a man with the guts to stand up for himself. I know many men who would agree with much of what you wrote.
Great question this week from Chris. Margaret Atwood's "A Letter to America" pretty much summed up my feelings on our situation in America. Even though they write about differant subjects and write from different times, they both try open our eyes to our hypocracy. If Sojourner was alive today she would be standing next to Atwood shaking her finger at us.
Sojourner Truth, what a great woman! She was bold enough to speak out on many different levels. I love the part when Sojourner defends women after a man says, "women can't have as much rights as men...she states back, where did Christ come from...God & a woman.” If Sojourner was still alive to this day, I wonder if she would speak out as boldly as she did back then. Something else to think about, I wonder if she would stand behind Hillary Clinton or even vote for her.
I feel that all men are not created equal. Many minorities are still looked down upon. For example, two men may have the same qualifications for a job, but one may be turned down because of his race. Our nation has improved over the years, yes, but there is still a lot of room for improvement. Men and women are still not seen as equal as they should, but we've come a long way in that respect. I'm still waiting for a woman or minority to take thier place as president, but with the upcoming elections it may happen yet. Great questions!
Sojourner would believe that everyone should get treated equal no matter what their religion or identity was. She was a black women that didn't get treated the same way as the other ladies. But she worked just at hard as the men. Years ago that was difficult to do, but aleast she stood up and spoke her mind. If she was here today, that's what she would still be doing.
I think that they would both agree on some changing in America. Different times and place for them both, and there were different problems back then for Sojourner. But she got their attention and Atwood did to.
Our nation has progessed over there years. For example, we have higher security so we are more careful on what goes on in our country. Since Sojourners time period people are treated way more equal now then back then.
A writer's arguement 100's years ago,i would think, wouldn't be as relevent today because it was a hundred years ago! We delt with it already, and we have other problems to worry about that are going on today.
I feel that today is just as important as 100 of years ago. Today we are still fight for rights, even if its not for just ourselves. We today are fighting for everyone rights. It may not be the same as it was back then, but today like I said it still as important as then.
I feel that Sojourner truth showed that she would have fought for anyone. Weather they were white or purple. That didn't matter.
There are many problems with the U.S. today. Politicians are stealing money and lying their way into office. But, perhaps what is most upsetting is that people today still don't seem like they have "Life, Liberty, and the Persuite of happiness." There are, still, people living on the streets who are unable to get a job in this country. Sojourner Truth would not be happy with the U.S. even today. Yes, it is better than it was in her time but nothing like it could be. As far as Margaret Atwood is concerned I don't believe that just because she is in the entertainment business that she has the authority to say the things that she does. America has been the victim of a terrorism and we need to defend ourselves and show the enemy that they messed with the wrong country. It is typical to say that we need to bring the troops home but what about the Iraqi people don't they have the right to life liberty and the persuit of happiness. wouldn't you want help too?!
I feel we can definetly learn from arguments that we used 100 years ago. So many things in history can be applied to current arguments and situations. Even if they don't fit into a situation exactly, we are able to learn from history. A strong argument can be applied to mainly situations. So, as with the stories that show that they both want freedom and it is a battle that has to be stood up for in all generations.
All men are not created equal. As I see it, there are still major race issues, class issues, and cultural issues. In the part of Illinois I come from there are still some places that will not serve and African American, yet a good portion of the poulation is mexican. I still cannot understand this. Going to the wealthiest catholic high school in my area, yet beng the poorest, i found this was a major disadvantage to me in many way. I was alway looked down uppon by the truly snobby. I don't know, I think Sojourner would defend even he slightest of injutices today. I believe she stood for every man, woman, child, black, white, yellow, purple, and green's rights.
I think that America has changed a alot over the past few years in many different ways. Some people have their own opinions on whether it is for the better or for the worst. I think that Sojourner and Atwood would probably agree with each other in a lot of different ways however as to where this country is going from what it once was. After 9/11 the country seemed to be refueled with togetherness and patriatism but it seems that it has fallen off again. People don't seem to happy and have seem to have lost sight of what America has meant to so many people for so long.
After reading both of the stories, I see that these women are very noble and couragous and are fighting for different but similar issues. Sojourner stood for equal rights for women. Where as Atwood talked about Americad economic issues. I think Sojourner would be happy with the progres we have made as far as womens rights. Although, men overall still seem to have the most power. I bet she would be campaigning with Hillary Clinton today. Or maybe she would try to be the first woman president. Back in her day even the thought would not have exceptable. Ont thing I think that Atwood and Sojourner wolud agre on todayis, that this country need to elect a woman president. What do you think? I think a writers argument can be as relevant today as it was 100 years ago. It may not pertain to the particular issue argued 100 years ago, but may be applied to somethong else. This country has madr much progress over the last 100 years, but still has many issues. In my opinion our first step toward resolution will happen next year. Go Hillary!!!!!!
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